Discussion Forum: General Discussion: Iyengar Yoga: atheist yogi

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atheist yogi

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pascal
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Sep 4, 2004, 7:33 AM

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i think i may look a little bit goofy when i read all these religious references here Angelic

, but... religion has nothing to do with yoga. Unimpressed

if you are a hindu , well, yoga is part of your religions practice, but if not, beat it up, boys Wink

, living without any gods is not so stupid (imagine a world without any religion..hmmmm..wouldn't it be more peaceful?) instead of thinking in term of connecting your soul to god, think of connecting your inner-humanity to nature, universe,.. and it is a very valuable goal either Smile

jday
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Sep 6, 2004, 9:24 AM

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What you suggest is valuable, but the teachings of yoga unequivacally say that yoga is the union between the soul and God. No one is making this up or inferring it. It is there black and white. That certainly doesn't have to be your intention when practicing, but you will be clearing the way for a purer life. Also, a belief in God or the union of Self with God does not mean that yoga is a religion. It is a philosophy of life.

suhas
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Sep 8, 2004, 5:03 AM

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It is nice to remember what Guruji has mentioned in his text, yoga is not a religion, but the science of religion. Yoga will help you in practicing your religion better, whichever one it is.

In one of the streams of thought of hinduism as well as yoga, belief in God is not neccessary to achieve union with God.

But I agree with you that this soemtimes too heavy. Better to practice with the attitude that this is for holistic development

gangadip
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Sep 9, 2004, 11:06 AM

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Westerners and a few Indians alike have diluted yoga for one reason or another. However, there is no need to de-emphasize the true purpose of all Yoga, which is Self-realization. This is not religion, in the west it would be called spirituality. Big difference. God is a very charged word, for some it is not a problem, for others it is a real stumbling block. The word God in terms of Yoga can easily be replaced by Self, Consciousness, the Absolute, and other terms. In Iyengar yoga classes the primary focus is on correct alignment in the asanas. No religion is there, though there is a grateful nod to Patanjali, the codifier of Yoga. Working on the asanas in any Yoga practice can bring unexpected results, including feelings of connectedness to the One. Just working on proper alignment in the poses can keep a person busy for years, no need to worry about God. Yoga is not religion, nor is it necessarily tied to any religion. The soul of yoga can be found in the Upanishads, but Hinduism is too diverse to say it is the religion of yoga. This essence of yoga might also be found at the core of other spiritual paths just as well. The true essence of Yoga is within us! The great ones who have gone the farthest along this path all confirm that.
But, no worries! One can ignore all these things and just do asanas. Such great benefit is there for the body and mind in hatha yoga, that is more than enough to start with.

Hari Om Tat Sat

Nadia
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Sep 10, 2004, 11:45 PM

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This is exactly what I have been trying to say on the forum about yoga and money. You have to be careful when you start using words like "God" and "religion" because it automatically narrows yoga into the same category as Christianity, Islam etc and other religions. I don't think that is what yoga is about. How many other religions have their own exercise phylosophies?

The thing about yoga is that as gangadip said, even if you decide to ignore the spritiual aspects of yoga and just do the asanas you can see results; your body does improve. If yoga was referred to constantly as a religion in western society many more people would be scared off , and as Bryan Alexandar said, they would think it was some kind of cult. Really, it's what you make of it, whether or not you decide to be a vegetarian or to become spiritually aware, it's what works for you that matters, and I think that's what is so wonderful about yoga. People can become dogmatic about anything, but in the end, you have to work with your own body and mind. Maybe this is what is so important about Iyengar's contribution to yoga; it's not that he "divorced" yoga from religion, but that he made it an option.

jot1
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Oct 7, 2004, 6:08 AM

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It is quite obvious that we are in desperate need of some clarification of termoninology. Vag-arthav'iva Sampriktau ... "Words and their meanings should be united like a marriage."

The Sanskrit word "Yoga" carries an almost identical meaning to the English "religion;" i.e., "to yoke" and "to link-back" to the Spirit. We want to be doing religion in general. Of course Yoga is a much more specific term than religion because it is all about a specific religion; i.e., Hinduism.

It demonstrates not only an basic lack of knowledge but also a grave insult when "yoga" is not defined within its proper Hindu religious context. The next "obvious" conclusion (that even Mr. Iyengar does not get) is that the teacher of any part of Yoga is a Hindu (or related sect).

Nadia
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Oct 7, 2004, 4:45 PM

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Words and their meanings are not united like a marriage. That is a fundamental part of language that it changes and evolves over time depending on the context. Words do not have fixed meanings, and nobody can govern their meaning like a judge. Of course yoga means something very different to every body, just as religion means something to different people. Some have very extreme views on religion, just as some have very extreme views on yoga. Who are you to say what is a grave insult or lack of understanding of yoga? What is your authority on the matter? Are you a yoga watch dog? I think the simple fact of the matter is that everybody is free practice any religion or yoga in the way they wish because it's a personal thing and there is no right or wrong. It's what works for the individual that is right. Why do you care if people don't see it as a religion? If it's so important, that's their loss.

jot1
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Oct 9, 2004, 5:51 AM

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Since meaning fixed words change do not sick, it is to put this forth. How then we say do not quess me, and on we go into fantasy--nadi

Nadia
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Oct 9, 2004, 10:45 PM

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I'm sorry, I did not understand your last post at all. Could please explain what you said again? Thank you.

Lil' Padma
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Oct 29, 2004, 4:11 PM

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jot1
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Oct 30, 2004, 6:09 AM

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In Reply To

I'm sorry, I did not understand your last post at all. Could please explain what you said again? Thank you. That is what happens when "words and their meanings are not united ..."

jot1
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Oct 30, 2004, 6:15 AM

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In Reply To

Dear Jot 1 and Nadia,

Patanjali's yoga sutras are considered to be from Samkhya philosophy, which, depending on your translations and readings do not affirm or deny the existence of a special separate entity i.e. "God". In this sense, the classical system of Samkhya does not defer to Hinduism. This information was gathered from Desikachar's writings, whose father, Krishnamacharya, had Desikachar read alongside him with just this idea in mind. - Lil' Padma You have been misinformed here Padma. The Yoga Sutras are not from Samkhya. The former was written of course by Patanjali and the latter Kapila. Patanjali does pay reverence to a Hindu MahaDeva; i.e., Siva/Kalanatha. Siva was Patanjali's Ishta Devata. In fact, the purpose of study (Svadyaya) according to Patanjali is to conect to a Hindu MahaDeva. Even in Samkhya, the goal is to connect to Purusha.

Lil' Padma
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Oct 31, 2004, 12:29 AM

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http://www.kheper.net/topics/Samkhya/Samkhya.htm

Obviously there is not a consensus. While correctly Kapila is credited with authorship of Samkhya, his metaphysics precede Patanjali. It was Patanjali, who utilized Samkhya metaphysics in the Yoga Sutras. Additionally please look at the way Purusha is defined in this handy website.

The Yoga sutras have a more universal appeal as they seem to lack a conscription to blind faith. Perhaps Patanjali does admit to this type of dualistic philosophy, and if he does, he does so without necessitating a belief in order to seek and obtain self-realization.

The concept of Ishvara:

"Unfortunately I cannot find an English word for Ishvara; perhaps it is God or the Divine Power." p130 Desikashar , The Heart of Yoga

That certainly is not certain.

Additionally ones relationship to their chosen Ishta Devata may be an appeal to a Divine power but that does not pre-suppose belief in God, or that said diety is an aspect or God or is subservient to God.

Why is this so important? Because If we speak as though we have such authority it may turn people off. Let people practice and see from their fruits what grooms belief or faith in accordance with their understanding. I think perhaps you and I could agree with Mr. Iyengar's comment in Tree of Yoga, that existence is first and foremost, and that meditation on the present is much more important than on goals of spiritual desire for what often gets entagled with raga and further creation of samkaras. LP

jot1
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Oct 31, 2004, 7:10 AM

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The Yoga Sutras in no way have a "universal appeal." Simply take a copy to your local synagogue, church or Mosque and ask them. You also confuse holding to a religion (and/or sect within a religion) as "blind faith." This is a grave error in discernment.

"Perhaps Patanjali does admit to to this type of dualistic philosophy..." duh. Any sane teacher does. It is non-sense to "authoritatively" presume "he does so without necessitating a belief in order to seek and obtain self-realization." This presumption indicates a complete lack of understanding of belief and "self" realization and Patanjali.

In looking for English words to fully define many Sanskrit terms is to often look in vain. Nonetheless, Isvara is Siva to Patanjali. Again, you completely misunderstand "Ishta Devata" which is a Hindu MahaDeva.

My guess is you are not a Hindu LP and thus trying in trying to comprehend Hinduism and Patanjali you have made some serious mistakes. If you desire to become a Hindu, great, but please learn and experience more before you make these kinds errors.

Lil' Padma
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Oct 31, 2004, 9:08 PM

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I practice Iyengar yoga, I have practiced yoga for 9 years, and Iyengar for 7. I do know practicing Jews and Christians who study the Yoga Sutras and find its applicability to their lives.

My friend Jot1,

Please be kind. I see you are in earnest. I see how strongly you connect religion with yoga. If I went down to the local Krishna temple I would find much support in your line of discussion, but, I ask you to set aside your deep personal convictions and allow there to be spaciousness, that permits others belief or disbelief, or uncertainty, as they understand. Your attitude of certainty is not just your own voice but the voice of many in a long line. All religions have their conservators, and some great things have survived because of it and well lots of human wreckage has been a price paid too. Can we agree that each religion often is interpenetrated with culture and therefore slices the pie of reality differently and idiosyncratically? Do you believe in Ramakrishna's belief in many paths one truth? How do you feel about being a practitioner without beliefs? What would happen? What would it lack for you? While you might find it heresy, other's might find it is the approach that best suits them. You do not have to agree, but surely you would rather let them have their freedom to understand through their own experience. Why would Patanjali address the mind so much, rather than bhakti? Why would Patanjali utilize Samkhya metaphysics? LP

jot1
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Nov 1, 2004, 7:20 AM

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In Reply To

you again miss the obvious. Yes, indeed, there are many valid religious paths up the mountian, so to speak. Which one did you choose to climb?

Lil' Padma
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Nov 1, 2004, 10:19 AM

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Dear Jot 1,

Our commonality for this forum is Iyengar yoga as I understand it. Our religious views are not necessary for us to be considered practitioners of Iyengar Yoga, thankfully. So, I will defend, regardless of my personal views, an athiest's right to be a fully fledged practitioner of yoga. Patanjali's Sutras are also a practical tool for self-understanding. Tell me if I get you correctly, do you believe one cannot practice devotedly without religious prescription? I take Ramakrishna to be applicable to athiest's as well. There is the tradition of humanism, and I find it refreshing. And while some people are better suited to orthodox religious practices and methods, not all are served best by these. One can have all the qualities of devotion and faith in one's self and desire to serve, all the atributes of a Yogi. One can appeal to personal higher power which may be the archetype of perfection a person envisions within oneself, with out prescribing to a god or demi-god. One can practice with religion in the latin sense of relgio to be regular, consistent, with cultivation, and still not belong to a group of religious devotees.

Did you quote Prabhupada in your post that I asked about? Do you practice Iyengar Yoga? How long? Please answer questions to which you are willing to ask, so we may continue in good faith. It engenders mutual respect, friendliness, compassion... you know. LP

(This post was edited by Lil' Padma on Nov 1, 2004, 10:22 AM)

jot1
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Nov 2, 2004, 6:28 AM

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Hi Padma,
Very thoughtful reply. If as you say Iyengar yoga is the "commonality" as you "understand it," perhaps you do not really understand from where Iyengar is coming.

Regrading an "athiest" yoga practioner: "Athiest" is not really an applicable word since Hindus/Yogis do not believe in "God" "Theos." As far as Hindu Yogis worshipping the Hindu MahaDevas (Spirit Beings) this is fact. I would suggest if you want to follow "Humanism" go ahead--just don't confuse what is Hinduism/Yoga and the many Hindu sages and their great devotion to the MahaDevas.

I do fully agree with you that within religio, in general, one can focus on the impersonal Soul/Spirit forces. In Hinduism/Yoga we refer to this as Satchidananda and Saguna Brahman. However, it is always wise to realize that we are all (at this point) embodied and thus have form which is generally what is inferred by the term 'theism.'

More about "the quote" in a bit. Your right. You deserve to know! Just waiting a bit to see how many more little "fishies" swim in.

Lil' Padma
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Nov 4, 2004, 11:03 AM

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" If as you say Iyengar yoga is the "commonality" as you "understand it," perhaps you do not really understand from where Iyengar is coming. " Jot 1

Dear Jot 1,

I call myself an Iyengar Yoga practitioner, as I owe credit to him for what I learned. I however do not believe in his beliefs. I use the term Guruji occcasionally, as it is common to use this term, but he is not my Guru.

Iyengar is a bit devious because he doesn't exactly reveal straight out he is not the universalist he claims to be. I also know he is Vaishnavite and I think anyone who goes to classes gets adjusted to the imposition of prayers that are often never explained, or are explained not in terms of folklore but in terms of "this is the truth, Patanjali reincarnated to live as man" .

The aforementioned is an instance where blind faith operates within the community. Doing as the Iyengar's do without any appreciable knowlege as to why or what.

I have learned to live with the contradictions because there is a preponderance of the positive. However in the Vini yoga community, Desikachar has taken a very different position in regards to Yoga and Samkha philosophy. He claims yoga is India's great gift and Hindu's impose their religion on it, by saying Hindu's can't help themselves from imposing their beliefs upon this art. A few years ago he forbade even Om from being chanted in class. Additionally , I believe he notes also that the Hindu Om is written differently from the way the Patanjali Om is written.

LP

If anyone on this board subscribes to "Yoga Rahasya" you get a much fuller view of the idealogical beliefs of the Iyengars et al as montly there is a review on the "Why we chant this one or that one".

suhas
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Nov 5, 2004, 12:41 AM

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Padma,

Hey, am not sure the tone is to my liking. Hinduism never imposed anything on anybody - please. The underlying philosophy is as universalist as it gets, even more than the Humanism you refer to.

One of the confusions that is coming is the narrow view of Hinduism as a religion like Christanity or Islam. Hinduism was a term used by non-Indians and over time it has been lumped to include peoples in India who do not belong to any established religion. In itself it contains many philosophies or paths if you will, which are at times contradictory. Yoga - Patanjalis Yoga is definitely one of the schools within the ocean of 'Hinduism', I think everybody agrees to that.

If yoga is born out of Hinduism as defined above, where are Hindus imposing their religion on it. One of the problems, especially in the past has been the negative stereotype Hindus carried, thanks in no small measure to media and the way history was written. Hence, the tendency of people to dissassociate from that word, whether it is Desikacharya or ISKCON.

Humility is neccessary in learning anything. Arrogance can close your mind and take you only so far. If you understand that - you can understand why initial prayers are important. You pay your respects and thanks to the initiator. In the process, you set your mind to be more receptive to his teachings. Does it make it a little bit more rational or still blind faith ?

The correct chanting of Om itself has a great effect on the body and mind. In fact, there are people who practice Mantra- Yoga which is correct chanting of Sanskrit slokas and have beneficial effect. You can further say 'Om' is a gift on which Hindus superimposed themselves. How far will you go ?

So why did Desikacharya stop the chanting of Om - he sounds to me as a fundamentalist who wanted to just make his point

And arent you being a little devious too, when you call him Guruji but do not really mean it ?

I would appreciate if you can spell out any other contradictions that you see and let me see if I see them the same way.

Nadia
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Nov 5, 2004, 4:07 AM

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Padma,

"Hey, am not sure the tone is to my liking. Hinduism never imposed anything on anybody - please. "

I don't think that Padma was posing this as his/her own view, but as someone else's opinion to show how differing view points of other yoga authorities/practitioners can be.

"And arent you being a little devious too, when you call him Guruji but do not really mean it ? "

If I remember correctly the sentence was "I use the term Guruji occcasionally, as it is common to use this term, but he is not my Guru." This is quite different to calling him Guruji.

And you know what, I honestly don't care whether yoga is a religion or not. I just like practising yoga. I don't really care what other people's beliefs are either, you're all entitled to be a hindu, muslim, christian, an athiest or a jedi knight if that's what works for you. In my eyes none are incompatible with yoga.

Cheers, Nadia.

Lil' Padma
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Nov 5, 2004, 5:21 PM

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"Hey, am not sure the tone is to my liking. Hinduism never imposed anything on anybody - please." Suhas

Dear Suhas,

I'm not accusing Hinduism, and I apologize if that is what I sounded like. I feel that the prayers are being inposed and Desikachar says that Hindus are the ones imposing Hinduism. That is very different. By the same token, I see Christianity imposed quite a bit where I live. The Hindu philosophy of a perfect soul is very appealing to myself who's background is Christianity. Additionally, I have found yoga clases to be reprieve from that kind of morality, that I grew up with in the particular brand of Christianity I was reared with. Sometimes in these classes less observant persons, with good intentions, do not see a line being crossed where many see prayer as a sacred act and done so with awareness and comprehension. I see that it in fact could be abusive to a sacred tradition to teach people prayers without respect to their background or understanding. I'm sure you know the story of Ashtavakrasana being made crooked from some very bad chanting. It could be considered harmful to both sides of the equation.

Desikachar is the son of Iyengar's Guru Krishnamacharya. I am not stating that I agree with everything Desikachar says, but he has opened my mind to this concern. Desikachar was disgusted seeing the abuse of Om as well. He mentioned at one Yoga conference a person had named their dog Om. Such is what happens with fads in the west. The trappings of commercialization often interrupt true understanding and growth. This gets in the way. This strengthens the position to let people focus in accordance with native religious understanding or what ever that person's belief's or lack of beliefs constitute.

Regarding calling Mr. Iyengar Guruji. Do you honestly think people, when calling him that, perhaps for the first time, consider the implications of this. I think this only goes to show how quick adoption of cultural expressions can lack the understanding as stated in the delemma above. It actually lets me feel in harmony amoung some individuals. I occasionally say Guruji and it really can take me off guard if said in certain company. I think it happens unconsciously. Also I feel a paternal association to Mr. Iyengar. I credit yoga for saving my life from one of serious physical infirmity, he and all good teachers hand that honor away, but his students brought a revolution to me life. My very character changed. I can also tell you, that the practice brought religious feeling to me, and I never expected it. I feel great love for my teachers, most of whom declare in humility it comes from him. Please don't think that I don't like Hinduism, or Hindus. They are some of the best people I know.

Again, I apologize to be adversarial, but I feel that Jot1 has brought up some valuable points. We should not close our minds to discussion and criticism. It can serve us well and is healthy for any organization.

Lil' Padma

(This post was edited by Lil' Padma on Nov 5, 2004, 5:29 PM)

jot1
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Nov 6, 2004, 8:16 AM

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Nadia,
You made a wonderful analogy to your "understanding" of yoga--a fantasy just like stars wars. Maybe this comes from too much media focus.

Love,
Jedi1

jot1
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Nov 6, 2004, 9:19 AM

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It is nice to see at least some taking a rather mature look at the various Hindu Yogas and teachers. Sushas made some great points, but there is an important clarification. Hindu(ism) is really not "a term used by non-Indians ..." The word "Hindu" is merely a different way of pronouncing "Indu" and "Sindhu," however the meaning is the same. These were the people the (H)indus who developed the religion that has come to be called (H)induism which is composed of the many sacred yoga practices.
The Hindu religion is broad indeed but still is very recognizable as one of the great established world religions. Padma mentioned "Desikachar says that Hindus are the ones imposing Hinduism." Of course they are and should--elegantly impress on a grand scale this majestic, stately Hindu/Yogic religion. If he thinks that Yoga and Hinduism are something different, he knows neither Yoga, Hinduism nor history. The (H)indus were the people who developed all of the Yogas. The people always precede the practice.
It is very strange that Desikachar would forbid people from chanting OM! Sadly he sees an abuse of Om and not the abuse of the Hindu/Yogas. It is because of these (ex-Hindu?) personalities from India that so many have been deluded about what is Yoga/Hinduism. It is very sad, and clearly they were more interested in their own personalities than the true expression of Hinduism and its many Yogas.
Many are beginning to wake-up to what has been done. Hinduism and its many Yogas is a great religion. People should study many religions and appreciate their specific teachings and practices. If a person wants to become a member of one the religions, great! Of course a religion (or religious teacher) should never be disguised as something else.

Re: "Guruji," etc.: We should strive to use words and their meanings with sincerity and conviction otherwise we end up living a very shallow life. Just look at how the media, etc. have insulted Hindus and their Yoga teachings with the misuse of numerous terms such as: "Guru," "Mantra," "Karma," "Pandit" and of course "Yoga."

suhas
Novice

Nov 9, 2004, 3:07 AM

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Hi Padma,

Umm - OK .. sounds better Wink

Discussions and arguments can help improve our knowledge, if we do not focus on the points of discussion and not each other.

BTW, why do you still consider the prayers an imposition. You know what the package is after one class. You are free to keep silent during the prayers ?
Also yoga itself can be seen abusive to ones traditions - you know how many churches try to negate yoga. A person may not use prayers, but use mythology to explain various poses etc - and that may seem devious to a third person, thinking he is imposing Hinduism. If a person knows the package up ahead, he is free to take it or leave it - in which case I would not call it imposing.

BTW, I can empathise with the brand of Christianity you are talking about - some of it has reached here and boy - it is agressive. Gues it takes all kinds of people to make the world go around

Regarding the use of the term Guruji and its implications - when I get into the class, there is no second doubting or background thinking. I try to take it in totally. Outside and the rest of living, there is not too much correlation anyway.

Regards
Suhas

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