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Dilemma of a Guru

 
 

Puneet Jain
Novice

Aug 28, 2001, 8:40 AM

Post #1 of 8 (484 views)
Dilemma of a Guru Can't Post
There has been a lot of talk about yoga teachers in this forum. I particularly appreciate Bryan Alexander's feelings and views on the subject.

A person who takes up Yoga out of dire necessity, who has come to Yoga seeking answers to his questions, for whom Yoga has shown a way to feeling understood and in union with the all, for him Yoga is a very intimate subject. Not to be aired in front of everyone for dissection and humiliation. The relationship between person and his practice is very close and of course when someone says something without understanding it, it hurts just as if when someone misinterprets the feeling of reverence and love for your beloved and drags it down to the mundane depths of lust and desire.

So have I felt humiliated by many people to whom I looked for guidance. And every time I was forced to come back hurt and nauseated vowing never to search for a teacher again.

Buddha has said that "Be a light unto yourself". Nevetheless in moments of weakness the temptation to set out in search of a Guru is a strong one and one I cannot resist many times.

Is it really so important to have a Guru. There is a tale in "Mahabharata" - the ancient epic of India about Eklavya. He was a young boy who wanted to learn the art of archery from Dronacharya. He had a very deep reverence for him in his heart and when he went to him seeking his permission to be accepted as a disciple, Dronacharya refused him. He was told that only the sons of Kings were allowed to be taught in his ashram and that he - an ordinary Bhil(a tribe) could not be taken in.

Thus refused permission, he remained undaunted. He set up a statue of Dronacharya in front of him and practised on his own seeking inspiration from his statue. And after a few years he became more proficient than "Arjuna" the hero of Mahabharata. At the end of his learning he went to Dronacharya and prostrated at his feet thanking him for guiding him in his practice. He asked him what he should offer to him as "Guru Dakshina" (an offering paid to the Guru by the disciple at the end of learning). Seeing the proficiency of Eklavya, Dronacharya was afraid for Arjun and asked for the thumb of Eklavya which he did not hesitate a moment to cut and lay in his feet.

Comments are welcome.


anatomist
User

Aug 29, 2001, 3:23 AM

Post #2 of 8 (473 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
I guess I don't get the moral of the tale. If not having a teacher was good for E, then the teacher did him a favor by not teaching. E wasn't actually taught, so he owed nothing for teaching. On the other hand, if not teaching was in fact a supreme teaching, then the moral of the tale is that one does indeed need a teacher. Either way, E sounds like ridiculous self-selected victim from my perspective.

I think whether you need a teacher depends upon what your purpose for studying yoga is. If you're looking for some kind of grand enlightenment or instructions on meditation, I suspect it is possible to do just as well with books -- although I can't say from experience.

If, on the other hand, like me, you are looking to learn what is basically a physical skill to promote musculoskeltal soundness, injury prevention, increased athletic capacity, etc.. then you damn well do need a teacher - unless you're willing to spend a few hundred years playing trial and error.

I have experimented with and seriously studied many physical disciplines, and I never learned anything worthwhile from a book or video, and there's no way I could invent a martial art or a vastly complex therapeutic exercise system on my own - the feedback loops are too slow.

I have, however, been able to teach myself extremely sophisticated sculptural and fabrication/construction skills with only minimal input from books and virtually none from teachers. I believe this is because these processes put me in direct feedback with only simple tools and physics, plus the feedback is immediate and ongoing.

In welding, I can make technique corrections as fast as I can think and move - maybe hundreds per second - and view the results immediately. By contrast, if I wanted to develop an effective exercise to improve the stability and capacity of my knees, it might take a year to test out just a couple of variations, and even then it would be nearly impossible to stabilize the myriad variables.

For my purposes, my yoga teacher is absolutely necessary... at least for a while.

K.





Gabriel
User

Aug 29, 2001, 9:01 AM

Post #3 of 8 (470 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
It should probably also be added that GOOD teachers are necessary for everyone to keep on the right path and avoid bad habits (both spiritual and physical) that could otherwise last for years. I happily did a very poor approximation of the dog pose in a class of 30 for a long time which was only corrected by my current teacher who teaches in small groups. She's also made me understand the "depth" of poses, how to integrate yoga with your life, etc.

Finding a good teacher is definitely worth the search.


Bryan Alexander
Enthusiast

Aug 30, 2001, 8:15 PM

Post #4 of 8 (469 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
I think that Puneet Jain is very much talking about more than just yoga as physical discipline, otherwise he wouldn't be quoting Buddha and the Mahabharata.

I think it's fair to say that in the philosophy of yoga, there is a difference between a teacher and a guru. As Ram Dass said, "A teacher shows the way. A guru is the way." A true guru has achieved total enlightenment, has realized Atman. A true guru transmits this to all who are open to it. A teacher, not being fully self-realized, can only point in the direction of Atman.

According to Georg Feuerstein, traditional yoga is based on a relationship between a guru and a disciple, and there is an initiatory structure to the relationship. It's safe to say that most American yoga is therefore not traditional yoga.

It's my belief that I may not have a guru who is embodied in a human form. But I do not stop searching. The fact that I get humiliated in one situation or another says more about who I am than who the teacher is.

Although Buddha encouraged us to be lamps unto ourselves, it's also true that he headed a monastic order, he offered teachings to monks and nuns and lay people, and he gave the teaching of the four noble truths as a lasting piece of guidance. If a buddha moved to my neighborhood, I wouldn't avoid that buddha just because I have to be a lamp unto myself.


Manny
User

Aug 30, 2001, 11:14 PM

Post #5 of 8 (468 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
I don't think anyone should consider anyone a guru as define above - as "the way". My very own life experience and observations of history shows that we should all be careful with the teachings of any person, organization, religion, etc. I've seen too many false prophets and scams. I feel that we should all carefully examine/test the teachings of those who are given such titles as guru. We should especially be careful with those that claim a path to something personal such as self-realization. We really can't see the fruits of labor of these so called gurus. Anyone can claim that they are self-realized, and anyone considering his path will not really know for sure if he is telling the truth until he examines and tests the teachings. It is tempting for everyone to quickly accept something as "the way", because I believe we are all desperately looking for some answers, some life meaning, some peace and happiness, etc.

With regard to these situations where the students are feeling humiliated by the teacher, the student should carefully consider what the teacher did. From what I've read and heard the Iyengar style of yoga is very strict and so are the teachers. They may be telling the truth (such as correcting form) despite being mean about it. One can know the truth and still be a jerk. The student should examine/research if the teacher was teaching a correct technique or principle. If the teacher was teaching truth, the student could find another teacher who is nicer, or he could "swallow" his pride and continue with the current teacher. I believe to be an effective learner one should overcome his/her ego. So what if the teacher is a jerk?? You are learning truth.

I follow the path of yoga because I feel that it can help me physically. I've read enough on medical studies as well as the teachings of yoga "gurus" to believe that yoga can help me. To get to self-realization, I'm am still not sure. There is part of me that believe that yoga is the path based on my experience that my physical pain distracts my mind in certain ways. But I am careful because I am aware that I am desperate to find answers/solutions to the pains that I experience in life.


Anonymous
Novice

Nov 10, 2001, 2:24 PM

Post #6 of 8 (471 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
beware of the fake ones!


lakshmi
Novice

Jan 25, 2002, 7:12 AM

Post #7 of 8 (398 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
My understanding of the story you quoted from the Mahab was that the young disciple was so devoted to the teachings of his guruji, that it was through this devotional practice that he learnt all there was to be learnt about archery, in the abscense of the master. What this means to me is that while teachers and guru's are necessary for the path, ultimately the responsibility is with the student. There has to be a time when the student reflects upon his or her own practice in the search for the Self. Smile

astavakra
Novice

May 30, 2002, 4:31 PM

Post #8 of 8 (192 views)
Re: Dilemma of a Guru [In reply to] Can't Post
Puneet has touched a very subtle aspect of learning and self development. Guru literally means the dispeller of darkness or ignorance. Guru can be external (embodied, or person) or internal. The true external guru will always point us to the internal guru. As someone mentioned, this may be true for meditation but not for yoga. Actually this is true for everything in life. A parent that holds the childs hand when it takes the first step soon leaves it so that the child can learn on its own. In that sense a external guru is necessary for most of us. There is quote attributed to BKS - A good book is better than a bad teacher. The problem comes when yoga is done has a performance exercise. Did I manage a pose in 1 week? did I get the same depth as the photograph in that book or that person? This i feel is the cause of injury. The body is a guru, an internal one, if we listen to the body at every moment it teaches us the exact extant of depth and stretch that is possible at that time. This may change day to day. There are certain basics which can be followed. I found The Heart of Yoga by Desikchar very useful. He highlights many of these basics, so is Living Yoga by Feuerstein good enough.

The other problem is instead on concentrating or being aware of the teaching we get caught in personality cult. Being aware if the teaching (of the guru) I guess is what RamDass implies by Guru is the way ( the teaching) and not the person.

The story of E from Mahabharat is the most unfortunate story about guruship. Drona was never a guru is true sense. He was a peddler of his goods for the money and power he wanted. There is a previous story which tell us how Drona came to the Capital of Kurus. He was not perfect. He wanted his student Arjuna to be the best and saw to it the competition was nuliified. He extracted E's thumb (shouldn't a compassionate guru have malice towards none?). He stopped Karna from competing on technicality. After he taught everything to the princes, as guru dakshina he asked his young wards to go and capture King Drupad. What does that teach? No wonder his wards ended killing each other. Definitely therewere other gurus: Vasistha-Rama, Nivrittinath-Jnaneshwar, Muktabai-Changdev.

Yoga is to achieve union, or being in flow, and not be able to do 84000 asanas. A guru takes ones from darkness to light by lighting that lamp in us so that we can be light on to ourselves. A person who tyranizes another to achieve a particular asana is a (ring)master. I guess in this sense BKS said a good book is better than a bad teacher.

 
 
 


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